Evaṁ me sutaṁ—So I have heard. ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā vesāliyaṁ viharati mahāvane kūṭāgārasālāyaṁ. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

Tena kho pana samayena saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ paṭivasati bhassappavādako paṇḍitavādo sādhusammato bahujanassa. Now at that time Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was staying in Vesālī. He was a debater and astute speaker respected by many people. So vesāliyaṁ parisati evaṁ vācaṁ bhāsati: He was telling a crowd in Vesālī, “nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ. “I do not see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take him on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the teacher of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ, sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā”ti? How much more then a human being!”

Atha kho āyasmā assaji pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya vesāliṁ piṇḍāya pāvisi. Then Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Vesālī for alms. Addasā kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ jaṅghāvihāraṁ anucaṅkamamāno anuvicaramāno āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ. As Saccaka was going for a walk he saw Assaji coming off in the distance. Disvāna yenāyasmā assaji tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā assajinā saddhiṁ sammodi. He approached him and exchanged pleasantries with him.

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṁ ṭhito kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ etadavoca: When the amicable and cordial talk was over, Saccaka stood to one side and said to Assaji, “kathaṁ pana, bho assaji, samaṇo gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti? “Master Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?”

“Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati: “Aggivessana, this is how the ascetic Gotama guides his disciples, and his instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: ‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ. ‘Form, feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness are impermanent. Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā. Form, feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness are not-self. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti. All activities are impermanent. All phenomena are not-self.’ *_saṅkhāras_ are, strictly speaking, neither the simplistic “choices”, nor the abstruse “fabrications/volitional formations”. They are “movements” in the most general sense, but they need not always be fully deliberate. For instance, a _puthujjana's_ misconceiving of the aggregates as “mine” is a _saṅkhāra_ ([SN 22.81](https://suttas.hillsidehermitage.org/?q=sn22.81)), but because they're unable to recognize that attitude as a _saṅkhāra_—and thereby straight away as impermanent, in which case they would irreversibly cease to be a _puthujjana_—that “activity” continues to take place. It is therefore not possible to simply choose not to take things as self: that _saṅkhāra_ is neither a “choice” nor an “intention”. Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti. This is how the ascetic Gotama guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.”

“Dussutaṁ vata, bho assaji, assumha ye mayaṁ evaṁvādiṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ assumha. “It is sad to hear, Master Assaji, that the ascetic Gotama has such a doctrine. Appeva nāma mayaṁ kadāci karahaci tena bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ samāgaccheyyāma, appeva nāma siyā kocideva kathāsallāpo, appeva nāma tasmā pāpakā diṭṭhigatā viveceyyāmā”ti. Hopefully, some time or other I shall get to meet Master Gotama, and we can have a discussion. And hopefully I can dissuade him from this harmful view.”

Tena kho pana samayena pañcamattāni licchavisatāni santhāgāre sannipatitāni honti kenacideva karaṇīyena. Now at that time around five hundred Licchavis were sitting together at the town hall on some business. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te licchavī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te licchavī etadavoca: Then Saccaka went up to them and said, “abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissati. “Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama. Sace me samaṇo gotamo tathā patiṭṭhissati yathā ca me ñātaññatarena sāvakena assajinā nāma bhikkhunā patiṭṭhitaṁ, seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso dīghalomikaṁ eḷakaṁ lomesu gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; If he stands by the position stated to me by one of his well-known disciples—a bhikkhu named Assaji—I shall take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a long-fleeced sheep by its fleece and drag it to and fro and round about! evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi. Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikākammakāro mahantaṁ soṇḍikākiḷañjaṁ gambhīre udakarahade pakkhipitvā kaṇṇe gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; Taking him on in debate, I shall drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about! evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi. Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikādhutto vālaṁ kaṇṇe gahetvā odhuneyya niddhuneyya nipphoṭeyya; Taking him on in debate, I shall shake him down and about, and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ odhunissāmi niddhunissāmi nipphoṭessāmi. Seyyathāpi nāma kuñjaro saṭṭhihāyano gambhīraṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā sāṇadhovikaṁ nāma kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷati; I shall play a game of ear-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of ear-washing! evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ sāṇadhovikaṁ maññe kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷissāmi. Abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissatī”ti. Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.”

Tatrekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu: At that, some of the Licchavis said, “kiṁ samaṇo gotamo saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti? “How can the ascetic Gotama refute Saccaka’s doctrine, when it is Saccaka who will refute Gotama’s doctrine?”

Ekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu: But some of the Licchavis said, “kiṁ so bhavamāno saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yo bhagavato vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho bhagavā saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti? “Who is Saccaka to refute the Buddha’s doctrine, when it is the Buddha who will refute Saccaka’s doctrine?”

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto pañcamattehi licchavisatehi parivuto yena mahāvanaṁ kūṭāgārasālā tenupasaṅkami. Then Saccaka, escorted by the five hundred Licchavis, went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood.

Tena kho pana samayena sambahulā bhikkhū abbhokāse caṅkamanti. At that time several bhikkhus were walking in the open air. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te bhikkhū etadavoca: Then Saccaka went up to them and said, “kahaṁ nu kho, bho, etarahi so bhavaṁ gotamo viharati? “Good sirs, where is Master Gotama at present? Dassanakāmā hi mayaṁ taṁ bhavantaṁ gotaman”ti. For we wish to see him.”

“Esa, aggivessana, bhagavā mahāvanaṁ ajjhogāhetvā aññatarasmiṁ rukkhamūle divāvihāraṁ nisinno”ti. “Aggivessana, the Buddha has plunged deep into the Great Wood and is sitting at the root of a tree for the day’s abiding.”

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto mahatiyā licchaviparisāya saddhiṁ mahāvanaṁ ajjhogāhetvā yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi. Then Saccaka, together with a large group of Licchavis, went to see the Buddha in the Great Wood, and exchanged pleasantries with him. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. When the amicable and cordial talk was over, he sat down to one side. Tepi kho licchavī appekacce bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodiṁsu, sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Appekacce yena bhagavā tenañjaliṁ paṇāmetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce bhagavato santike nāmagottaṁ sāvetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce tuṇhībhūtā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Before sitting down to one side, some of the Licchavīs bowed, some exchanged pleasantries, some held up their joined palms toward the Buddha, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.

Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: Then Saccaka said to the Buddha, “puccheyyāhaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ kiñcideva desaṁ, sace me bhavaṁ gotamo okāsaṁ karoti pañhassa veyyākaraṇāyā”ti. “I would like to ask Master Gotama about a certain point, if you would take the time to answer.”

“Puccha, aggivessana, yadākaṅkhasī”ti. “Ask what you wish, Aggivessana.”

“Kathaṁ pana bhavaṁ gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana bhoto gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti? “How does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?”

“Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, sāvake vinemi, evaṁbhāgā ca pana me sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati: “This is how I guide my disciples, and my instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: ‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ. ‘Bhikkhus, form, feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness are impermanent. Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā. ‘Bhikkhus, form, feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness are not-self. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti. All activities are impermanent. All phenomena are not-self.’ Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, sāvake vinemi, evaṁbhāgā ca pana me sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti. This is how I guide my disciples, and how instruction to my disciples generally proceeds.”

“Upamā maṁ, bho gotama, paṭibhātī”ti. “A simile strikes me, Master Gotama.”

“Paṭibhātu taṁ, aggivessanā”ti bhagavā avoca. “Then speak as it occurs to you, ” said the Buddha.

“Seyyathāpi, bho gotama, ye kecime bījagāmabhūtagāmā vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjanti, sabbe te pathaviṁ nissāya pathaviyaṁ patiṭṭhāya. “All the plants and seeds that achieve growth, increase, and maturity do so depending on the earth and grounded on the earth. Evamete bījagāmabhūtagāmā vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjanti. Seyyathāpi vā pana, bho gotama, ye kecime balakaraṇīyā kammantā karīyanti, sabbe te pathaviṁ nissāya pathaviyaṁ patiṭṭhāya. All the hard work that gets done depends on the earth and is grounded on the earth. Evamete balakaraṇīyā kammantā karīyanti.

Evameva kho, bho gotama, rūpattāyaṁ purisapuggalo rūpe patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, vedanattāyaṁ purisapuggalo vedanāyaṁ patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, saññattāyaṁ purisapuggalo saññāyaṁ patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, saṅkhārattāyaṁ purisapuggalo saṅkhāresu patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, viññāṇattāyaṁ purisapuggalo viññāṇe patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavatī”ti. In the same way, an individual’s self is form. Grounded on form he creates merit and demerit. An individual’s self is feeling … perception … activities … consciousness. Grounded on consciousness he creates merit and demerit.”

“Nanu tvaṁ, aggivessana, evaṁ vadesi: “Aggivessana, are you not saying this: ‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti? ‘Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, activities are my self, consciousness is my self’?”

“Ahañhi, bho gotama, evaṁ vadāmi: “Indeed, Master Gotama, that is what I am saying. ‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’ti, ayañca mahatī janatā”ti. And this large crowd agrees with me!”

“Kiñhi te, aggivessana, mahatī janatā karissati? “What has this big crowd to do with you? Iṅgha tvaṁ, aggivessana, sakaññeva vādaṁ nibbeṭhehī”ti. Please just unpack your own statement.”

“Ahañhi, bho gotama, evaṁ vadāmi: “Then, Master Gotama, what I am saying is this: ‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti. ‘Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, activities are my self, consciousness is my self’.”

“Tena hi, aggivessana, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi, yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi. “Well then, Aggivessana, I will ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, What do you think, Aggivessana? vatteyya rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa sakasmiṁ vijite vaso—Consider an anointed aristocratic king such as Pasenadi of Kosala or Ajātasattu of Magadha, son of the princess of Videha. ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassā”ti? Would they have the power in their own realm to execute those who have incurred execution, fine those who have incurred fines, or banish those who have incurred banishment?”

“Vatteyya, bho gotama, rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa sakasmiṁ vijite vaso—“An anointed king would have such power, Master Gotama. ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassa. Imesampi hi, bho gotama, saṅghānaṁ gaṇānaṁ—Even federations such as the Seyyathidaṁ—vajjīnaṁ mallānaṁ—Vajjis and Mallas vattati sakasmiṁ vijite vaso—have such power in their own realm. ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ. Kiṁ pana rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassa? So of course an anointed king such as Pasenadi or Ajātasattu Vatteyya, bho gotama, vattituñca marahatī”ti. would wield such power, as is his right.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, “What do you think, Aggivessana? yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: When you say, ‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso—‘Form is my self,’ do you have power over that form to say: evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti? ‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that’?” Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhī ahosi. When he said this, Saccaka kept silent. Dutiyampi kho bhagavā saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ etadavoca: The Buddha asked the question a second time, “taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso— evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti? Dutiyampi kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhī ahosi. but Saccaka still kept silent. Atha kho bhagavā saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ etadavoca: So the Buddha said to Saccaka, “byākarohi dāni, aggivessana, na dāni te tuṇhībhāvassa kālo. “Answer now, Aggivessana. Now is not the time for silence. Yo koci, aggivessana tathāgatena yāvatatiyaṁ sahadhammikaṁ pañhaṁ puṭṭho na byākaroti, etthevassa sattadhā muddhā phalatī”ti. If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Realized One, his head explodes into seven pieces there and then.”

Tena kho pana samayena vajirapāṇi yakkho āyasaṁ vajiraṁ ādāya ādittaṁ sampajjalitaṁ sajotibhūtaṁ saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa uparivehāsaṁ ṭhito hoti: Now at that time the spirit Vajirapāṇī, taking up a burning iron thunderbolt, blazing and glowing, stood in the sky above Saccaka, thinking, “sacāyaṁ saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavatā yāvatatiyaṁ sahadhammikaṁ pañhaṁ puṭṭho na byākarissati etthevassa sattadhā muddhaṁ phālessāmī”ti. “If this Saccaka does not answer when asked a third time, I will blow his head into seven pieces there and then!” Taṁ kho pana vajirapāṇiṁ yakkhaṁ bhagavā ceva passati saccako ca nigaṇṭhaputto. And both the Buddha and Saccaka could see Vajirapāṇī.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhīto saṁviggo lomahaṭṭhajāto bhagavantaṁyeva tāṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁyeva leṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁyeva saraṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: Saccaka was terrified, shocked, and awestruck. Looking to the Buddha for shelter, protection, and refuge, he said, “pucchatu maṁ bhavaṁ gotamo, byākarissāmī”ti. “Ask me, Master Gotama. I will answer.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, “What do you think, Aggivessana? yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: When you say, ‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso—‘Form is my self,’ do you have power over that form to say: evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti? ‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that’?”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.” *This doesn't mean that choice and will do not exist. It means that they are always *subordinate* to the aggregates. By taking medicine, one *might* successfully cure an illness and thereby modify one's form, but the fact remains that it's always possible for all of one's attempts to fail. That is because form has the final say; one can at best, to use an analogy, submit proposals to it.

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; “Think about it, Aggivessana! manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. You should think before answering. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before and what you said after do not match up. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, What do you think, Aggivessana? yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: When you say, ‘vedanā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ vedanāyaṁ vaso—‘Feeling is my self,’ do you have power over that feeling to say: evaṁ me vedanā hotu, evaṁ me vedanā mā ahosī”ti? ‘May my feeling be like this! May it not be like that’?” *One can seek all sorts of entertainment and distraction to alleviate an unpleasant feeling that has arisen (which is always mental and should not be confused with physical sensations), but it's always a gamble as to whether it will work. That is why people can, for example, remain depressed even though they are actively trying to get out of that state.

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; “Think about it, Aggivessana! manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. You should think before answering. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before and what you said after do not match up. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, What do you think, Aggivessana? yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: When you say, ‘saññā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ saññāyaṁ vaso—‘Perception is my self,’ do you have power over that perception to say: evaṁ me saññā hotu, evaṁ me saññā mā ahosī”ti? ‘May my perception be like this! May it not be like that’?”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; “Think about it, Aggivessana! manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. You should think before answering. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before and what you said after do not match up. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, What do you think, Aggivessana? yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: When you say, ‘saṅkhārā me attā’ti, vattati te tesu saṅkhāresu vaso—‘Activities are my self,’ do you have power over those activities to say: evaṁ me saṅkhārā hontu, evaṁ me saṅkhārā mā ahesun”ti? ‘May my activities be like this! May they not be like that’?”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.” *We have the capacity to make certain choices only because the possibility of making them was given to us beforehand, whatever the reason may be. For instance, someone who is incapacitated cannot engage in the activity of moving their affected limbs; they at best engage in the activity of *thinking* about moving their limbs, and that is something different.

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; “Think about it, Aggivessana! manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. You should think before answering. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before and what you said after do not match up. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, What do you think, Aggivessana? yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: When you say, ‘viññāṇaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ viññāṇe vaso—‘Consciousness is my self,’ do you have power over that consciousness to say: evaṁ me viññāṇaṁ hotu, evaṁ me viññāṇaṁ mā ahosī”ti? ‘May my consciousness be like this! May it not be like that’?”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.” *Consciousness in the modern sciences is defined in various ways that are incompatible with the five-aggregate scheme, as they often end up mixing it up with the other four aggregates. In the Buddha's teaching, there is not one consciousness; each sense base has its own consciousness ([MN 38](https://suttas.hillsidehermitage.org/?q=mn38)). _viññāṇa_ is simply the fact that the other four aggregates and instances of them (or a sense experience with the six-sense scheme) are being experienced, with each distinct phenomenon possessing its own consciousness. So the statement that one does not wield power over consciousness means, in simple terms, that one cannot decide to be aware of things that one is not aware of, or to not be aware of things that one is already aware of. Even a choice to go and find out more about something would require being aware about that something in the first place, at least in imagination.

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; “Think about it, Aggivessana! manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. You should think before answering. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. What you said before and what you said after do not match up. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, What do you think, Aggivessana? rūpaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti? Is form permanent or impermanent?”

“Aniccaṁ, bho gotama”. “Impermanent.”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti? “But if it is impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Dukkhaṁ, bho gotama”. “Suffering.”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ: “But if it is impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti? ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.” *It's important to see that _anattā_ is the result of seeing impermanence and not-self: things are *unfit* to be regarded as “mine” because of their inherently unreliable nature, and *not* because the things themselves somehow “do not ultimately exist” or “are never the same for two successive moments”, which is pure mysticism not found anywhere in the Suttas. One develops the insight of _anattā_ by understanding that appropriation is a _mistake_ that requires training and diligence to rectify, and not by taking on an intellectually pleasing belief that the self is “merely an illusion”.

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, “What do you think, Aggivessana? vedanā …pe… Is feeling … saññā …pe… perception … saṅkhārā …pe… activities … taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, viññāṇaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti? consciousness permanent or impermanent?”

“Aniccaṁ, bho gotama”. “Impermanent.” *_anicca_ is not about our experience being in constant flux, in which case it would not follow automatically that whatever is _anicca_ is _dukkha_. There is no reason why perpetual novelty must be inherently unpleasant. One must start these contemplations not from a theoretical stance aiming to ascertain the metaphysical “true nature of reality”, but from a concrete and personal point of view of acknowledging one's attachments, emotional dependences, and appropriations. Seeing impermanence in that context automatically entails suffering, and that makes it impossible (when seen rightly) to keep taking things as “mine”.

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti? “But if it is impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Dukkhaṁ, bho gotama”. “Suffering.”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ: “But if it is impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti? ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “No, Master Gotama.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, “What do you think, Aggivessana? yo nu kho dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, api nu kho so sāmaṁ vā dukkhaṁ parijāneyya, dukkhaṁ vā parikkhepetvā vihareyyā”ti? Consider someone who clings to, holds to, and rests upon suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ Would such a one be able to completely understand suffering himself, or live having cast away suffering?”

“Kiñhi siyā, bho gotama? “How could they? No hidaṁ, bho gotamā”ti. No, Master Gotama.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, “What do you think, Aggivessana? nanu tvaṁ evaṁ sante dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ: This being so, are you not someone who clings to, holds to, and rests upon suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassasī”ti?

“Kiñhi no siyā, bho gotama? “How could I not? Evametaṁ, bho gotamā”ti. Yes, Master Gotama.”

“Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, puriso sāratthiko sāragavesī sārapariyesanaṁ caramāno tiṇhaṁ kuṭhāriṁ ādāya vanaṁ paviseyya. “Suppose, Aggivessana, there was a man in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, he would take a sharp axe and enter a forest. So tattha passeyya mahantaṁ kadalikkhandhaṁ ujuṁ navaṁ akukkukajātaṁ. There he would see a big banana tree, straight and young and grown free of defects. Tamenaṁ mūle chindeyya, mūle chetvā agge chindeyya, agge chetvā pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujeyya. He would cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. So tattha pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujanto pheggumpi nādhigaccheyya, kuto sāraṁ? But he would not even find sapwood, much less heartwood.

Evameva kho tvaṁ, aggivessana, mayā sakasmiṁ vāde samanuyuñjiyamāno samanugāhiyamāno samanubhāsiyamāno ritto tuccho aparaddho. In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be void, hollow, and mistaken. Bhāsitā kho pana te esā, aggivessana, vesāliyaṁ parisati vācā: But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī: ‘nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ. ‘I do not see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take him on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the teacher of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā’ti? How much more then a human being!’ Tuyhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, appekaccāni sedaphusitāni nalāṭā muttāni, uttarāsaṅgaṁ vinibhinditvā bhūmiyaṁ patiṭṭhitāni. But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it is soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. Mayhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, natthi etarahi kāyasmiṁ sedo”ti. While I now have no sweat on my body.” Iti bhagavā tasmiṁ parisati suvaṇṇavaṇṇaṁ kāyaṁ vivari. So the Buddha revealed his gold-colored body to the assembly. Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhībhūto maṅkubhūto pattakkhandho adhomukho pajjhāyanto appaṭibhāno nisīdi. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, dismayed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

Atha kho dummukho licchaviputto saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ tuṇhībhūtaṁ maṅkubhūtaṁ pattakkhandhaṁ adhomukhaṁ pajjhāyantaṁ appaṭibhānaṁ viditvā bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “upamā maṁ, bhagavā, paṭibhātī”ti. “A simile strikes me, Auspicious One.”

“Paṭibhātu taṁ, dummukhā”ti bhagavā avoca. “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha.

“Seyyathāpi, bhante, gāmassa vā nigamassa vā avidūre pokkharaṇī. “Venerable sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, Tatrāssa kakkaṭako. and a crab lived there. Atha kho, bhante, sambahulā kumārakā vā kumārikā vā tamhā gāmā vā nigamā vā nikkhamitvā yena sā pokkharaṇī tenupasaṅkameyyuṁ; upasaṅkamitvā taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā taṁ kakkaṭakaṁ udakā uddharitvā thale patiṭṭhāpeyyuṁ. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they would pull out the crab and put it on dry land. Yaññadeva hi so, bhante, kakkaṭako aḷaṁ abhininnāmeyya taṁ tadeva te kumārakā vā kumārikā vā kaṭṭhena vā kathalena vā sañchindeyyuṁ sambhañjeyyuṁ sampalibhañjeyyuṁ. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. Evañhi so, bhante, kakkaṭako sabbehi aḷehi sañchinnehi sambhaggehi sampalibhaggehi abhabbo taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ puna otarituṁ, seyyathāpi pubbe. And when that crab is claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it would not be able to return down into that lotus pond. Evameva kho, bhante, yāni saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa visūkāyitāni visevitāni vipphanditāni tānipi sabbāni bhagavatā sañchinnāni sambhaggāni sampalibhaggāni; In the same way, venerable sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka is twists, ducks, and dodges. abhabbo ca dāni, bhante, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto puna bhagavantaṁ upasaṅkamituṁ yadidaṁ vādādhippāyo”ti. Now he cannot get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto dummukhaṁ licchaviputtaṁ etadavoca: But Saccaka said to him, “āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, (…) na mayaṁ tayā saddhiṁ mantema, idha mayaṁ bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ mantema. “Hold on, Dummukha, hold on! I was not talking with you, I was talking with Master Gotama.

Tiṭṭhatesā, bho gotama, amhākañceva aññesañca puthusamaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ vācā. Master Gotama, leave aside that statement of mine—made also by various other ascetics and brahmins. Vilāpaṁ vilapitaṁ maññe. It was just nonsense. Kittāvatā ca nu kho bhoto gotamassa sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti? How do you define a disciple of Master Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, gotten rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions?”

“Idha, aggivessana, mama sāvako yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati; “It is when one of my disciples sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding as it is: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ yā kāci vedanā …pe… He sees any kind of feeling … yā kāci saññā …pe… perception … ye keci saṅkhārā …pe… activities … yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā, yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati. consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all consciousness—with right understanding as it is: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, mama sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti. That is how to define one of my disciples who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, gotten rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions.”

“Kittāvatā pana, bho gotama, bhikkhu arahaṁ hoti khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto”ti? “But how do you define a bhikkhu who is an Arahant, with influxes destroyed, who is consummate, has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved the highest goal, utterly destroyed the fetter of being, and is liberated by right understanding?”

“Idha, aggivessana, bhikkhu yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā anupādā vimutto hoti; “It is when, having seen any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding as it is: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self,’ a bhikkhu is liberated through non-assumption. *“Liberated through non-assumption” describes how an Arahant is freed from suffering not because they have somehow altered or “fixed” their experience—including their feelings—but because their mind is disenchanted with the aggregates regardless of how they manifest. See [SN 35.228](https://suttas.hillsidehermitage.org/?q=sn35.228). yā kāci vedanā …pe… Having seen any kind of feeling … yā kāci saññā …pe… perception … ye keci saṅkhārā …pe… activities … yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā anupādā vimutto hoti. Having seen any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all consciousness—with right understanding as it is: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self,’ a bhikkhu is liberated through non-assumption. Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu arahaṁ hoti khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto. That is how a bhikkhu is an Arahant, with influxes destroyed, who is consummate, has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved the highest goal, utterly destroyed the fetter of being, and is liberated by right understanding.

Evaṁ vimuttacitto kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu tīhi anuttariyehi samannāgato hoti—A bhikkhu whose mind is liberated like this has three unsurpassable qualities: dassanānuttariyena, paṭipadānuttariyena, vimuttānuttariyena. unsurpassable seeing, unsurpassable practice, and unsurpassable liberation. Evaṁ vimuttacitto kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu tathāgataññeva sakkaroti garuṁ karoti māneti pūjeti—He honors, respects, esteems, and venerates only the Realized One: buddho so bhagavā bodhāya dhammaṁ deseti, danto so bhagavā damathāya dhammaṁ deseti, santo so bhagavā samathāya dhammaṁ deseti, tiṇṇo so bhagavā taraṇāya dhammaṁ deseti, parinibbuto so bhagavā parinibbānāya dhammaṁ desetī”ti. ‘The Auspicious One is awakened, tamed, appeased, crossed over, and extinguished. And he teaches the Dhamma for awakening, taming, appeasing, crossing over, and extinguishing.’”

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: When he had spoken, Saccaka said to him, “mayameva, bho gotama, dhaṁsī, mayaṁ pagabbā, ye mayaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ āsādetabbaṁ amaññimha. “Master Gotama, it was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate. Siyā hi, bho gotama, hatthiṁ pabhinnaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo. For a man might find safety after attacking a rutting elephant, but not after attacking Master Gotama. Siyā hi, bho gotama, pajjalitaṁ aggikkhandhaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo. A man might find safety after attacking a blazing mass of fire, but not after attacking Master Gotama. Siyā hi, bho gotama, āsīvisaṁ ghoravisaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo. A man might find safety after attacking a poisonous viper, but not after attacking Master Gotama. Mayameva, bho gotama, dhaṁsī, mayaṁ pagabbā, ye mayaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ āsādetabbaṁ amaññimha. It was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack Master Gotama in debate. Adhivāsetu me bhavaṁ gotamo svātanāya bhattaṁ saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghenā”ti. Would Master Gotama together with the bhikkhu Saṅgha please accept tomorrow’s meal from me?” Adhivāsesi bhagavā tuṇhībhāvena. The Buddha consented with silence.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavato adhivāsanaṁ viditvā te licchavī āmantesi: Then, knowing that the Buddha had consented, Saccaka addressed those Licchavis, “suṇantu me bhonto licchavī, samaṇo me gotamo nimantito svātanāya saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghena. “Listen, gentlemen. I have invited the ascetic Gotama together with the Saṅgha of bhikkhus for tomorrow’s meal. Tena me abhihareyyātha yamassa patirūpaṁ maññeyyāthā”ti. You may all bring me what you think is suitable.”

Atha kho te licchavī tassā rattiyā accayena saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa pañcamattāni thālipākasatāni bhattābhihāraṁ abhihariṁsu. Then, when the night had passed, those Licchavis presented Saccaka with an offering of five hundred servings of food. Atha kho nigaṇṭhaputto sake ārāme paṇītaṁ khādanīyaṁ bhojanīyaṁ paṭiyādāpetvā bhagavato kālaṁ ārocāpesi: And Saccaka had fine fresh and cooked foods prepared in his own home. Then he had the Buddha informed of the time, saying, “kālo, bho gotama, niṭṭhitaṁ bhattan”ti. “It is time, Master Gotama, the meal is ready.”

Atha kho bhagavā pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya yena saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa ārāmo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā paññatte āsane nisīdi saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghena. Then the Buddha robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, went to Saccaka’s park, where he sat on the seat spread out, together with the Saṅgha of bhikkhus. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto buddhappamukhaṁ bhikkhusaṅghaṁ paṇītena khādanīyena bhojanīyena sahatthā santappesi sampavāresi. Then Saccaka served and satisfied the bhikkhu Saṅgha headed by the Buddha with his own hands with fine fresh and cooked foods. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ bhuttāviṁ onītapattapāṇiṁ aññataraṁ nīcaṁ āsanaṁ gahetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. When the Buddha had eaten and washed his hand and bowl, Saccaka took a low seat and sat to one side.

Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: Then Saccaka said to the Buddha, “yamidaṁ, bho gotama, dāne puññañca puññamahī ca taṁ dāyakānaṁ sukhāya hotū”ti. “Master Gotama, may the merit and the growth of merit in this gift be for the happiness of the donors.”

“Yaṁ kho, aggivessana, tādisaṁ dakkhiṇeyyaṁ āgamma avītarāgaṁ avītadosaṁ avītamohaṁ, taṁ dāyakānaṁ bhavissati. “Aggivessana, whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as yourself—who is not rid of passion, aversion, and muddledness—will accrue to the donors. Yaṁ kho, aggivessana, mādisaṁ dakkhiṇeyyaṁ āgamma vītarāgaṁ vītadosaṁ vītamohaṁ, taṁ tuyhaṁ bhavissatī”ti. Whatever comes from giving to a recipient of an offering such as myself—who is rid of passion, aversion, and muddledness—will accrue to you.”

Cūḷasaccakasuttaṁ niṭṭhitaṁ pañcamaṁ.

MN35: undefined